From jag@cs.rochester.edu  Sat Mar 22 18:35:57 1997
  msgnum: msg03880
  From: jag@cs.rochester.edu
  Subject: Re: Spring has sprung and so has the rust.
  Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 19:35:51 EST
  
  Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:04:11 -0700
  >From: Mike Wynn 
  > 
  >         Well all the snow is finally slowly disappearing, and van washes are
  > becoming more and more frequent. With the last couple washes Ive done, the
  > sight of the small rust spots on the hook-up side of my 83' Vanagon are
  > really starting to bug me. So, I was wondering if anyone could either point
  > me to, or inform me of the process of prepping, protecting, and repainting
  > all those hidious little metal malformities.
  >         All the spots seem to be occuring on the bottom panel - drivers side
  > below my water/power hook ups. Is this a common place to get rust? Anyone
  > else have a similar problem?
  
  Unfortunately yes. It is also likely that your rust problem stems
  from water leaking inside the body panel. I had similar rust spots, which
  on inspection turned out to be serious cancer (the paint was still hiding
  most of it until I probed around the spots.) The rust under the hookups was 
  caused by water leaking in though the hookups and puddling on the body 
  reinforcement beam some 10 cm below. Eventually it started rusting between 
  the beam and the panel. 
  
  This happended to me and at least one other listmember, Harry Yates,
  For a more wordy account see the archives:
  
  My post: 
          Thu, 10 Aug 95, 
  
  or if you like typing lots of strange characters:
          http://www.med.umn.edu:8853/cgi-bin/msg?m=msg13352&a=/v95/vanagon.95.08
  
  Harrys:
          Sun, 3 Mar 96
  or:
          http://www.med.umn.edu:8853/cgi-bin/msg?m=msg05046&a=/v96/vanagon.96.03
  
  
  For advice on how to fix rust, here is a compilation of some previous
  net.wisdom:
  
  >From Bob's rusty seams sermon:
  
          When dealing with a rusty seam often times your only recourse is to 
          use chemicals but the most successful method is to remove the rust, 
          weld the seam closed and go on from there. 
  
  >From vwairfaq:
  
          So basically you have rusted metal.  You can cover it up by
          cleaning off the rust, coating it with some rust inhibitor, cover it
          with body filler, paint it and wait for the rust to reappear some
          other day.  There are those that feel this is adequate given a tight
          budget.  The more aggressive types say you should always cut
          out *all* rust, replace with new metal, grind, sand, prime and
          paint for a long lasting solution.  This FAQ will assume you want
          to be a little more aggressive and do a thorough job, but will
          mention the "low dough" approach when appropriate.  
  
  So basically both are bad news to us who think we can solve our problems
  with a little sanding, naval jelly (phosphoric acid) and bondo. However
  Bob's sermons does go on and tell us how to do a descent job without
  welding:
  
  >From Bob's how to fix the rusty windshield sermon:
  
          If you wish to use fiberglass for the repair you should
          have some experience with composites and with
          the unique problems of bonding composites to steel
          structures. In most cases the fiberglass repair will
          result in a new, rust-proof flange only to produce
          rust under some other portion of the repair a few
          years later. Repair of an improperly done composite
          repair is more difficult than doing a welded repair. 
  
          The best composite repair is to build a mold of the
          shape you wish to produce using rigid urethane
          foam. You can glue the foam to the dashboard then
          sand it to shape. This will put gravity on your side
          as you do the lay-ups and fills. Covering the
          urethane with heat-smoothed plastic sandwich
          wrap will impart a glass-smooth surface to the
          finished lay-up. 
  
          The lay-up should progress in two steps, first
          laying up two or three layers of fine twill-woven
          six-ounce fabric saturated with a suitable epoxy
          resin. Surface with peel-ply and allow to cure. Strip
          off the peel-ply. trim for height, lay in a build-up of
          saturated chopped cotton fiber to form the fillet then
          do the finish lay-up with two or three layers, the
          first layer being the widest, the other(s) narrower.
          The stepped layers will be easier to blend in to the
          contour. If properly done, the repaired flange will
          have exactly the same contour as the metal flange it
          replaced but will be stronger and impervious to rust.
  
          Once the lay-up has cured, grind to finished size
          and blend the layers into the contours of the nose.
          Prime and paint. 
  
  The chemicals Bob refers to are so called rust converters and rust
  removers:
  
  *Converters:
  
  Converts rust to some more stable oxide, and leave a polymer
  protective coating to prevent new rust (often requires several
  coats for this to be effective). The coating can
  be painted over with a primer, and sometimes directly with a 
  top coat.
  
  Brand names and manufacturers:
  
  Extend: Loctite
  Rust reformer: Rust-Oleum
  Neutra rust: New York Bronze powder Co.
  Trustan: Trustan Co
  Rust avenger: 
    3M Coorp.
    Automotive trades div.
    3M center
    St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
    (612) 733-1110
  
  *Rust removers: 
  Rust removers are applied and then washed off.
  They dissolve or convert rust. The surface must be primed and
  painted after washing.
  
  Phosphoric acid based:
    Naval jelly
    Rust-A-hoy: Travasco Labs Inc.
    Cortec 420/421: Cortec Corp.
      310 Chester St.
      St Paul, MN 55107
      (612)224-5643
  
  Other:
    Oxi-solv: Leaves a zinc phosphate coating, which improves
              paint adhesion.
      Solv-O Coorp.
    PO Box 787
    Taylor MI 48180
    (313) 292-2060
  
  *Rust inhibitors:
  Prevents rusting of bare metal.
  
  Cortec VCI-319 and VCI376
  Cold galvanizing compound
    Eastwood Co.
    PO BOx 296
    Malvern, PA 19355
    (800) 345-1178
  
  *Oils:
  Dont use on accumulated dirt! Water but not oxygen proof, so if water
  is trapped under oxygen can permeate through oil film and continue
  rusting.
    
    Motor oils
    Marin oils
  
  *Primers:
  
  Regular automotive primers require a rust free surface, but
  Fish oil primers work well on rusted surfaces.
  Usually cannot be painted over with autmotive type top coats. Suited for
  temporary fixes to body and repairs in invisible areas (underbody,
  inside of panels etc.) Paint over with regular oil paint, or 
  the by the manufacturer recommended top coat for best protection.
  
  Rusty metal primer 7769: Rust-Oleum
  
  Red Penetrating primer FSC 1451: Contact Paint and Chemical Corp.
  
  
  Good luck in your "rustoration"
  
  /Martin (and '82 Westy)
  
  PS The best rust prevention here in the road salt infected east is
  to wash the buss frequently (don't forget the underside). 
  
  "If I had to choose one preventive tactic and forget all the rest,
  I would choose regular washing. No other single measure does as much
  to prevent rust. Nor are there many other tasks that are cheaper or
  easier to carry out."
  
  Cited from:
  
  RUST How to keep it from destroying your car
  Steven B. Joseph
  Ward Hill Press, Staten Island, NY, 1989
  ISBN 0-96233380
  
  
  ------------
  Thu, 10 Aug 95, 
          http://www.med.umn.edu:8853/cgi-bin/msg?m=msg13352&a=/v95/vanagon.95.08
  
  
  Does your vanagon rust from the inside?
  
  Yesterday, when fixing what I though were some minor spots of surface
  rust, I got an unpleasant surprise: In two areas the vanagon body had
  rusted completely through from the INSIDE and out. This was on an
  otherwise rust free vehicle.
  
  The two places are below the lower front grille, and under the
  three hookup covers (This is an 82 Westy diesel). In both cases the 
  cause appears to be that water has entered from the outside, and got 
  trapped between the body sheet metal and a supporting crossmember. 
  Eventually the sheet metal rusted through, and small bubbles started 
  to appear under the paint.
  
  I removed the hookup covers and repared the rusted area under them with 
  fiber glass and resin. When I put the covers back I plan to seal them
  with silicone. 
  
  I couldn't get the lower grille out to fix the rust under it, and access
  from under the car is limited. I tried to pull the grille, and push from
  behind on the "snap in" plastic pieces, but nothing would make it move.
  Do I have to drill out the fasteners, or is there some other trick
  to get the grille out?
  
  Is rust from the inside common in these two areas on the vanagons?
  
  /Martin
  
  ---------------
  
  From wabbott@megatest.com  Thu Sep  7 21:38:15 1995
  Subject: Brushable Seam Sealer
  
          Either Joel or Bob Hoover suggested Brushable Seam Sealer
  for filling the gaps between the new battery tray and the old body
  metal. So I finally got that far, and this suff is cool, although not
  cheap.
          The one-quart or so can cost $15.00 or so at Color-Rite, the
  local body and paint place. We used cheap acid brushes to apply it
  to both sides of the seams, and it sticks and appears to fill quite
  well. I generously sprayed primer and one coat of top-coat on first,
  so the sealer doesn't have to be the rust-barrier too. I'll top-coat
  over it and that's the end of painting.
  
          Its like grey peanut butter, with an intense tolene smell.
  Use in a well ventelated area, maybe with a mask too. The label
  on the can promises that it "holds brush marks like OEM finish" for
  those extra concours points. :)
  
          For my working-truck aspirations, I've been using the
  Rustoleum Antique White for VW off-white, and its got more yellow
  and less gray, but works well enough I think.
  
  ------------
  Wed Mar  6 12:37:12 EST 1996
  
  
  vw85westy@aol.com wrote:
  > I am assessing the future of the bus, and want to know what to think of
  > emerging rust along seam, driver side.  This is the seam that joins the
  > panels holding the middle and rear windows.  Rust discoloration is starting
  > to show up about two thirds of the way up, and a bubbling rust spot the size
  > of a dime has emerged about a foot up the bus.
  
  and
  
  "Tom Forhan"  wrote:
  >     Peter and Zippy,
  >
  >     Sorry you did not hear a direct response from listmembers.
  >
  >     After Bob Hoover's eloquent writings on rust, everyone else was
  >     probably afraid to post, fearing literary humiliation. Check the
  >     archives, or the Sermons at http://www.sky.net/~rmk/hoover/ .
  
  Rust is the worst threat to our busses, so maybe this subject needs
  to be dealt with in detail. The body of my '82 Westy is perfect, except
  for three sore spots. The depressing thing is that despite I sand,
  naval-jelly, prime and paint these spots, the rust always comes back
  after the winter season. I read Bob's sermon, but I still don't know
  what I should do better.
  
  The three areas are: The body seams Peter describes, the front seam
  between the lower grille and the bumper, and a tragic rust through
  just under the Westy hookups. Theses three areas have in common that
  the root of the problem is on the inside, and the inside is (almost)
  inaccessible. 
  
  The rust under the hookups was caused by water leaking in though the
  hookups and puddling on the body reinforcement beam some 10 cm below.
  Eventually it started rusting between the beam and the panel. The 
  rust near the bumper is similar: The reinforcing box beam under the
  bumper is welded to a 2-3 cm wide "lip" of the front body panel.
  Water must have gotten in between the two overlapping metal surfaces,
  and it's evidence, in the form of brown streaks is coming out
  through the weld. I have no idea of how to cure this problem.
  
  The body panel seams should be somewhat easier to treat. When it
  gets warm enough I will redo the sand-naval jelly-paint procedure,
  but this time use a flexible seam sealer in the seam instead of bondo.
  This should hopefully last longer. I was also thinking of using
  rustoleum paint over rust primer on the inside of the seams. I've
  had good luck with this primer on the under carriage. The drawback is
  that it isn't very suitable to be painted with the automotive top coat.
  
  /Martin J
  
  PS The document I'm referring to is:
  http://www.sky.net/~rmk/hoover/rustyseams.html
  
  PPS: Take warning from Harry Y and my experiences with leaking
  flue and hookups. I discovered it only one year ago, and then it 
  was too late. It had already caused the rust though. See my
  post last spring for details.
  
  ----------------
  
  Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:08:52 -0400 (EDT)
  From: ERIC ZENO 
  To: vanagon@lenti
  Cc: pll@unlinfo.unl.edu
  Subject: Rain in your Vanagon
  Message-ID: 
  
      To all Vanagon owner:
      Subject: Water Leaks A MUST TO STOP RUST!
         
         This is something I have not seen discussed yet. I have seen
         several Vanagons with water leaks in the same spots. The first                                         
         is around the from windsheild. Hard to notice leak, you will
         find a small amount of water on one or both sides of the front
         floor. This water can  easily be misstaken for water from your
         feet getting into the vehicle in wet weather. If you look under
         the flooring (carpet and 1/2" thick sound insulation) you may
         find a lot more water. The fix is cheap and easy. On a dry day
         use a air gun around the entire outside windshield seal, 
         between rubber and glass, and then between the rubber and body, 
         until you see no more water or dirt coming out. Then use clear
         silicone seal from a caulking gun around the hole window. Force 
         the tip of the gun under the entire rubber outside edges. 
         You may need to stop on the outer
         corners to fill up larger gaps. Spend the time needed to clean
         up. This stuff makes a mess. The second leak I have seem is a
         vertical body seam on drivers side, between quarter and middle 
         panel. Once again by removing the flooring and finding water 
         in the bay area, you can be tell if you have this water leak. 
         To fix this, remove the driver side inner panel. This leak also 
         means rust. You need to spray a rust inhibiter acid from the 
         inside out. Force it into the seam with a air gun. Then clean 
         any of the acid that may have made it's way to the outside, off 
         your paint. Once dry use a good paint on the inside. This is 
         usually enough to stop this leak. If you use your van for camping
         this is a great time for insulating.
                                       ERic ZEno
  
  Greetings! Any Vanagonites (or otherwise) had experience with rainwater
  leaking from behind dash?
  After about 24 hours of driving rain, there were slow drips on both the
  passenger and driver side (91 Vanagon) onto the floormats. I felt around as
  best I could from below: very damp, unable to locate source. windshield seal
  seems intact. Any ideas?
  
  Pat
  
  
                   Eric Zeno
                   emz@nauticom.net
                   86 Syncro
                   86 GL
                   72 240Z
                 1936 Chrysler
  ---------
  
  Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:45:46 +0000
  From: vwbus@netbiz.net
  To: dad@together.net, vanagon@lenti
  Subject: Re: Rusty seams
  Message-ID: <199704030342.WAA20267@bang.netbiz.net>
  
  > After cleaning, reaming, scaping, filing, expropriating, What Do You Do
  > Next?  What kind of crud do you put in there?
  > 
  
  Add sandblasting, and etching.  Then apply a quality metal etching 
  primer, PPG products my favorite, or a good epoxy primer, let cure, 
  then fill with a quality automotive seam sealer, comes in caulk tube, 
  there are many brands etc, 3M makes good stuff, others equal, just 
  buy it at a good busy auto paint store who knows their stuff.  Will 
  set you back a fair piece of change ($15/tube or so).  Then maybe 
  reapply the epoxy primer, top coat etc.  If the rust is very severe, 
  you will have to smooth the bumps out a bit with bondo before doing 
  the origional seam.  Avoid the temptation to bondo the entire seam, 
  it will not work or hold up.  Bondo the edges of the body carefully 
  (after the first coat of primer if using PPG stuff), sand it nice and 
  flat, prime again, then seam sealer, etc.
  -------
  
  Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:54:06 +0000
  From: "Harry Yates" 
  To: dad@together.net
  Cc: vanagon@lenti
  Subject: Re: Rusty seams
  Message-ID: <199704030408.UAA06351@mozart.bcit.bc.ca>
  
  Hello Lloyd.   I do believe there is a product for just the 
  application you want.  
  
  Mar-hyde made a Fast Drip Check Sealer (#7001) that is designed to 
  flex and be paintable.  No need for primer... this stuff goes over 
  bare metal.  Use *flexible* paintable primer on top, and then paint 
  (either by brush or spray if you wish).
  
  Excert from the box:
  
  .... fast curing, fast setting seam sealer that adheres to all 
  surfaces, skins in 2 - 3 minutes, and is paintable in 30 minutes.  
  Self-leveling properties makes tool marks and edges disappear.  
  Excellent for stopping all types of water and wind leaks.  ....  
  Final set is very tough and elastic - will not crack or peel
  
  I've used this a few years ago now without any problems reoccurring.  
  I purchased this stuff from an auto body supply store... I believe it 
  was $10 or so CDN.
  
  Hope this helps.
  Harry.
  --------
  Topic No. 26
  
  Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:09:56 +0000
  From: vwbus@netbiz.net
  To: vanagon@lenti, type2@home.ease.lsoft.com
  Subject: Vanagon RUST DESIGN FLAW
  Message-ID: <199706131406.KAA31261@bang.netbiz.net>
  
  I've decided to make this a general post.  I've noticed something 
  that will trouble people in the salt areas (rust/snow belt, and beach 
  combers).  It is a common Vanagon rust area which I had not given 
  much thought too till this past weekend.
  
  Hey this brings something else up depending on how long you intend to
  really keep that silver beast I've noticed a critical design flaw that
  hits us in this area.  After noticing all my vans and Eriks have rust
  beginning or beginning to get severe at the joint under the bottom
  grille from body to bumper support I started wondering, as the rust
  does not start from the outside but comes from behind.  The cause is
  obvious when you get to looking at it.  The joint is and overlapping
  spot welded affair that looks like this.
  
          |  ^ up to body and grille
          |
       |  |  < RUST STARTS BEHIND HERE WORKS DOWN JOINT
       |  |  < spot welds
       |  |
       |  |______   \/ Eventually bubbles out the bottom of joint here
       |________________________
  
                              ^ out to bumper support
  
  The problem with the design is that it is not well coated or painted
  from BEHIND as it is up in there and not easily sprayed at a downward
  angle.  This gets exasperated by the fact that in the winter around
  here, salt spray will get blown up the slots in the lower grill and
  drip directly onto the joint.  The rust starts from behind down the
  joint the by the time you see it on the outside way too late.  I'll lay
  odds even a '90 is already rusting like this (my Texas van excluded). 
  Pull the lower grille and look at this joint, hope you are not too
  bad.  Then do something immediately, I imagine some cleaning,  good etching
  primer brushed on followed by some seam sealer then a good topcoat. 
  Although the joint runs the full way across (and you might try to get
  to it all along from behind, I notice the problem is primarily
  concentrated under the grille as one would expect, however it clearly
  happens all along as the '81 (sans lower grille) is the same way but
  it spent it's life on the beach (even worse for salt settling on badly
  designed joints). 
  
  Anyway everyone who intends to keep a van in the rust belt that does 
  not already suffer from this better take a hard look at it now  from 
  my experience an '87 could be looking bad already, an '85 could be 
  irreperable, and a '81 could be just poor with big holes.  To repair 
  this correctly would be murder and basically mean removing and 
  replacing the bumper support.  The funny thing is this was always a 
  trouble area, BUT I think the bay design with it's overlapping drip 
  rail design was clearly superior.  VW steps back in progress like on 
  so many things.
  
  John
  vwbus@netbiz.net 
  -------------
  Re: Tell me about Seam Sealing
  
  John Anderson (vwbus@mindspring.com)
  
  >For those in the know, please explain what is it is, what it does, and when
  >it's necessary.
  >
  
  All buses? (well at least bays, vanagons, EV's, not sure never done body
  work on a split) body panels exterior joints feature junctions at which the
  adjacent panels come together and are spot welded on a 90° bent flange. Now
  where these come together, big long seams that is like from center side
  panel to rear panel, rear panel to rear corner, the seams are sealed from VW
  in the sky with a pliable rubbery greyish goop known universally as seam
  sealer. Seam sealer being not unique to VW, and pliable unlike the adjacent
  steel eventually splits away from the steel with time age, temperature
  cycling, etc. On Vanagons particularly the stuff seems poor in quality
  right from the factory particularly '81-'87 or so, but maybe the rest simply
  are not old enough. Certainly late bays are not as prone as Vanagons though
  to rust on the seams. Well after it splits away, water, salt, whatever gets
  in there and as the adjacent butting flanges were not likely painted or
  protected (impossible to do, save for galvanizing which VW did not do) they
  start to rust, iron oxide being bigger than the steel it replaces forces
  apart the seam, causing more and more rust. On and on it goes, eventually
  holes, ugly evil cancer spreads. The solution cut the rust out, if it's
  very minor and you're doing bodywork anyway, scrape the seams with big
  x-acto, putty knife, whatever, get the shit out, sandblast with fine grit
  80-100 mesh or so, blow out, scrape, sandblast, blow. Sandblasting pliable
  rubbery stuff off is very hard, a pliable surface is frustratingly resistant
  to sandblasting, a lot of scraping first helps lots. Get them to your
  liking, the welds will prevent total cleaning, on the corner panel joints,
  scrape/blast from the back as well, do both sides. When all this is done,
  use a metal prep solution on the seam, I'd use nothing heavy in acid, you
  will not get it all out, in fact a major negative of acid dipping cars to
  strip, a good shop cuts open all the seams, welds all back up later (well on
  a $50k resto maybe) so acid does not stay in or creep out making the problem
  worse later, epoxy prime, only epoxy under seam sealer, if not available,
  just apply good seam sealer directly to seam with caulk gun (3M product
  good). Follow directions let it dry, prime, paint as normal. A lot of
  inside joints are coated with a brushable seam sealer product, again with
  time VW stuff has not held up, rust starts under sealer which is again
  usually on bare metal. Here again, scrape off, sand blast, prep, epoxy
  prime, brush the brushable stuff (in a can) on, let dry, prime and paint.
  For any interior joints BTW, I'd use seam sealer (brushable) even if not
  origionally so protected, or joints in the engine compartment, etc. unless
  you are doing a 100 point resto.
  
  John
  vwbus@mindspring.com
  
  
  
  -------------
  
  Just my $0.02, brushable seam sealer is great stuff for sealing
  seams but doesn't appear to me to take the place of primer and paint as
  far as protecting metal from rust and all. SO, when replacing the battery
  tray in our '70 pickup, I sprayed primer (Rustoleum for rusty metal) down
  between the facing pieces of sheetmetal, and followed that with the 
  topcoat (Antique White, Rustoleum). 
  THEN I applied brusable seam sealer from the can, $15 for a quart 
  from the local pro auto finish place. 
  AND THEN I primed over the seam sealer and sprayed a second top-coat. 
  Two years later it hasn't rusted yet :)
  
  The neighbor who welded the battery tray replacement part in place
  generously sandblasted the results, and took a light swipe at the trunk
  paint some fool had sprayed in the engine compartment. There's STILL
  sand sifting out of the works today. So I'd be warry of sandblasting
  inside unibodies. Not saying I have a better recipie, but you're going
  to have a lot of sand inside nooks and crannes that I wouldn't begin
  to know how to remove. I guess primer and paint will entomb some or
  most of it, but gee, what a mess. 
  
  Regarding undercoating, old seam sealer, etc, I would definately
  NOT try to sand-blast it straight-away. Scrape, use a heat gun, whatever, 
  but not abrasives at first.
  
  Bill
  '97 Baby Benjamin '70 Single Cab '48 3br/2ba